Podcast: Sperm Donation World Episode 11

AH: Welcome to Episode 11 on Sperm Donation World. I’m your host Adam Hooper. I think it’s finally, I think it’s time that we discussed the Law and today we have a special guest that we can have that ability to do that. So sit back and enjoy.

Welcome to the show Nicole Evans. Author of the book, “Lesbians and the Law”. Today we’ll talk about your book. How did the book start? What’s your background?

NE: So I am the Principal Director of Nicole Evans Lawyers which is a boutique Law firm in the Sydney CBD. I specialise in Family and Criminal Law.

AH: You obviously was a Lawyer before you had your own children?NE: Yes, so I graduated in I think it was around 2004 and I became a Lawyer. I have two children of my own. My daughter is nine and my son is seven.

AD:A lot of us have seen movies like Kramer v Kramer and Marriage Story and there seems to then be a perception that the minute the Lawyers are called in, it turns ugly and very very messy, but is that always the case? Can there be situations were calling a Lawyer in is actually the process that can keep the peace rather than beginning the “I’ll see you in Court” style show downs.

NE: Yeah absolutely and more and more these days people see the time and costs involved in going through the Family Court and want an alternative option, so the collaborative divorce process is becoming more and more common, and people will sign collaborative agreements saying that they both agree not to go to Court, and they will sit down and go through, like a mediation process, over a few months with accountants, financial advisors, child experts to come up with an agreement in terms of property and parenting that works for everybody.

AH: So back then, I think your first child you had was in 2008?

NE:2010.

AH: Back then there wouldn’t have been a lot of resources out there. The internet, if you even chose a donor from there would be a non-appealing way of looking at having a child because it was quite a dark black market back then. What were your options when considering to become parents?

NE: Yes, we didn’t know any same sex couples at that time who had kids. A friend of ours actually offered to reach out to another couple that she knew who had had children through an unknown donor. She introduced us to them so that we could meet up with them and ask any questions that we had. Other than that, we pretty much had no idea about the process, what to expect and there was hardly any information out there. Because I was a Lawyer obviously, I suppose had the background to do research into the area. I was practicing in Family Law at the time. But even still there was hardly any information out there other than sort of some pamphlets from community legal centres and really limited information about the rights of known donors, unknown donors and also of the non-birth mother. So at the time we decided, with me and my partner that she would get pregnant first and at stage being a non-birth mother, I was looking for information on what my legal rights would be. Fortunately, the year before our daughter was born, they actually just changed the Law so that I would be declared a legal parent. So when she was born, I was able to be listed on her birth certificate as her mother as well.

AH: That’s an interesting point. It seems just in recent times that lesbians or same sex woman, or however they would like to identify, was never renowned in the 90s or the early naughties of having children. Do you reckon that was a massive deterrent not being able to have your partner’s name on the birth certificate now because of with gay marriage and essentially with we’re starting to move forward with progression that people feel more comfortable being able to start their family now free from discrimination?

NE: Absolutely, I think now that it’s much more common. I think most same sex couples nowadays sort of progress in their relationship and will consider and go along to have children. There’s not that social stigma in same sex relationships to have children. There’s a lot more information out there and most people know other people that have gone through the process, so that they have those people to find out information from and through the legal process as well there are same sex Lawyers and people that are able to give more information on the process, like yourself as well.

AH: You mentioned earlier, you graduated and became a Lawyer in 2004?

NE: Yes.

AH: Were you inspired by potentially this sort of field?

NE: Yes.

AH: Was being same sex an inspiration for what made you want to become a Lawyer?

NE: Look, I suppose going through high school, I loved debating and arguing. Growing up, my Stepmother was a Lawyer and I admired her and decided that I wanted to do what she was doing, wanted to help people, and as a I finished University and became a Lawyer I then into the field of Family Law. When my partner and I got together and we actually got married, we had a civil ceremony first through the British Consulate in Sydney, I think we were probably one of the first sort of new couples to do that. We were both British citizens and when they had brought in the civil partnership, we were able to do that here in Sydney in about 2008.

AH: That’s cool.

NE: So we were legally civil partners, not recognised here, but we still felt some kind of I suppose recognition of the Law, even though it was through the UK, which was nice, and then we did a sort of larger wedding here in the Hunter Valley about three months after that. We then decided that we both wanted to have children and we both wanted to experience being pregnant and decided that she would go first. So we started going and looking through the process of how we would find a donor and just going through that pregnancy process.

AH: You did mention about that civil ceremony that you did. Did that obviously recognise you as a, in your de facto relationship, is that the equivalent sort of thing, making it easier to …?

NE: Yeah, so back then in Australia, it gave us that legal recognition to show to the Family Court here that we were in a committed de facto relationship.

AH: What inspired you and how the idea of writing the book, “Lesbians and the Law” come into fruition?

NE: I feel like having gone through the process myself of having children and being a birth mother and a non-birth mother, as well as being a Family Lawyer, gave me a unique set of skills and perspective to advise people on similar journeys. I know how difficult the process is and how limited the information was that was out there and available, I felt that I wanted to give people the information that I had learnt going through the process myself and through my experience as a Lawyer working in that area.
AH: Where do you see the Law headed in terms of same sex couples and gay men being able to have children and different families which weren’t really recognised a few decades ago. Could you see some countries like Canada even including multiple names, more than two on birth certificates, are we going to go this far in Australia, can you foresee anything like this?

NE: Look I think the Law here is evolving slowly but we are starting to get there. We now recognise both mothers as legal parents and I think perhaps one day in the future we may see the Law recognising children having more than two parents, in situations where there are two mothers and a known donor. There’re obviously still difficulties for male same sex couples trying to have children with commercial surrogacy being illegal in Australia, that’s another challenge for male same sex couples. In terms of having more than two parents on a birth certificate, I think the Family Court here has grappled with the meaning of a legal parent in particular with assisted reproduction, when they sort of apply the term children having a relationship with both parents, which implies that a child can only have two legal parents. The conversations have definitely started around the issue of more than two parents being put on a birth certificate, but that won’t happen until the Law actually recognises more than two legal parents and like as you said in Canada, in British Columbia they actually can have more than two legal parents. I think we’re still a little bit away off from that happening here but I would love to see that legal reform which will send a strong message to the community that same sex families particularly are legitimate and deserve the same level of protection and recognition as any other.

AH: Do you reckon it could become potentially more messy, more arguments if there’s more parties on the paper?

NE: Yes, obviously the more people involved in the situation the more potential there is for disagreements. There’s, I’ve certainly been involved in cases where there’s two mothers, a donor, a donor’s partner and it’s like any situation, the more people you involve the more complex it is.

AH: So this is something that I’ve also noticed in my community, sometimes we get new men and women every day through the doors, but many of them have an older child or a child on the profile picture while I’m doing the screening process. I do a welcome message and a friendly “hello” and there’s a little chat before all people join, in most cases. I do mention, “Oh have you used a donor previously from Sperm Donation Australia or on another web page?” Quite often they say, “Yeah well, we used a friend previously and we were friends for ‘x’ amount of years” – normally say 8 to 15 years, something quite long in length – “We used him. He was great.” Then the child was born and then he, I guess he felt some more attachment than they were anticipating and their friendship became weird. Is that sort of the scenario?

NE: Yes, look I’ve had a lot of friends that have used a known donor and had successful outcomes and then others that have had mixed experiences. Obviously, my experience as a Family Lawyer in this field, I have come across a lot of cases where they have used a friend who they’ve had a relationship for quite some time but as you say, the donor has become attached to the child and vice versa, to the point where the child is calling the donor Dad. Dad has a pretty reasonable level of involvement in the child’s life and then decides that they want more involvement and that’s when the complexities and issues have arisen.

AH : See from my reading and I’m not in the Courts every day like you are Nicole so correct me if I’m wrong, but when you have a friend that’s formed a relationship with the child and even to the point that the child is calling him “Daddy” or some title along those lines, it opens the Family Court to be more inclined to giving that visitation rights to the biological Father than say if they used an internet donor that was a complete stranger that they don’t effectively know that he’s a good person, does that open them up more when people are friends for the …?

NE: Absolutely, if you use an unknown donor then the Law basically says that that unknown donor has no legal rights. When you choose a known donor the Family Court is essentially taking the view now that you’ve made a decision for that person to be involved in the child’s life in some way. From the child’s perspective, the Court says that a child has the right to know who their parents are and that can include a biological parent. The donor is also what’s called a person concerned with the welfare of a child, so even if they don’t have legal parental rights in the Family Court, under that provision they can also still apply for time with the child.

AH: So it’s good to clear that sort of up for some. I think people do think, “Oh, we’ve got a trusted friend”, and I’ve just seen people …

NE: Yes, I think that’s the common misconception.

AH: Mmm, but on the other hand, Sperm Donation Australia, I’ve never had a reported legal custody fret/issue, or it hasn’t certainly been reported to me and I get all sorts of complaints whether or not a donor is 15 minutes late from showing up, so people do complain. I just want to confirm with you has anyone walked through your firm’s doors and said, “I had a donor from Sperm Donation Australia?”

NE: They haven’t, no, so you’re obviously doing a really good job.

AH: Yes, we do like to put the resources out there and let people know, and this podcast here today getting some legal advice from Nicole Evans is something we really want to encourage in the future as well that if you have any legal questions to reach out to people like Nicole to get that information and feel at ease, cross your, is it cross your i’s and dash your t’s, is the saying?

NE: Yes. Cross your t’s and dot your i’s. Yes, look I think sort of forewarned for arms. I think the more information you have the better chance there is for successful outcomes.

AH: No, totally. What are your views on agreements? Do you see them even becoming more valid in the future?

NE: Look I think Donor Agreements are really useful to clarify everyone’s expectations going to a known donor pregnancy. The Family Court takes the view that you can’t contract out of your responsibilities as a parent, so I think at the moment people need to be very careful and seek legal advice when entering into a Donor Agreement. They’re not binding contracts and unless the Law changes on that issue, I think people should absolutely seek legal advice before entering into them.

AH: My theory is if you want to do an agreement, yes, that it covers that, but then if you are having an electronic conversation where you’re saying you’re open to other ideas and stuff like that then both the agreement between what you write there and your electronic conversations could be contested with each other, so you really do need to be in line with what you’re talking about and then what you eventually sign with an agreement. Would you say that’s sort of got a, do you got to be on part with it?

NE: Yes, I agree with what you’re saying. From a Family Court’s point of view though it doesn’t really matter what you say, it’s about the child’s best interest, so even if a donor says, “I don’t want to have anything to do with the child”, the minute the child’s born it’s the child’s right to have a relationship with their parents. So even if you maintain one position at any time, you could make an application to the Family Court as a known donor.

AH: But what I meant was is like artificial insemination, that would be listed along the agreement as the form of conception, would it?

NE: Yes, so you’d want to have a very detailed agreement on pre-pregnancy planning, the health of the donor, the expectations in terms of how are you going to get pregnant and going through that process, procedures around the birth and who is going to be present, who is going to be on the birth certificate, the child’s name, what the child is going to call the donor, the contact with the donor’s family, celebrations of important days in the child’s life, religion, so many things that need to be considered. The more you put into the agreement the better it is for everyone because everyone’s expectations are managed and everyone understands what their role is in the process.

AH: Yes, even DNA testing now might need to be put in the agreement based on …

NE: Yes, absolutely.

AH: … based on an outcome in North America where a lady swabbed her daughter and she’s found a relative of her donor and I think it’s got a bit messy over there and she’s lost her vial so she can’t have anymore siblings with that same donor anymore.

NE: Yes, there’s so many different complexities when going through the process.

AH: You’ve got your views on the agreements. I also say to people as well is, it might sound a bit seedy I guess, but take a picture of the cup prior to insemination, it will date stamp the picture and it will prove that the conception was artificial insemination if there was any doubt in that, so there’s some strong evidence there.

NE: Yes, definitely, that’s a great idea. Yes, that’s really good advice.

AH: Okay, so we’ll talk about some case studies. I think generally people think, we’ve had people with the idea before, save for single women in this case, that have the idea that if they take the donor that they meet off the internet through the clinic they are more protected than when they do it at home insemination. There was a case in Victoria, Groth v Banks [2013], where a single lady did decide to use a donor and the donor signed a form that was presented by the clinics that was waiving his rights to parenthood. Now in hindsight and from the determination of the Court, its being ruled that essentially this waiver form meant nothing and he was granted rights. How did that all happen and is some of these forms that the clinics are giving, is it more for comfort rather than practically working?

NE: Yes, I think clinics are trying to provide some level of protection for parties going through this process. I think the difficulty is the Law is only just catching up to the practical realities of situations that people are going through to have children. I know that in this case the mother went to the clinic with the known donor and he did sign a form acknowledging that he had no legal claim to the child but then he was present when the child was born, visited the child regularly and developed a bond with the child. The mother and the donor were actually in a relationship as well so this case was a little bit different/unique to the situation. He then ended the relationship and the mother decided that she didn’t want him to see the child anymore. He then made an application to the Family Court to be legally recognised as the Father and in this case the Court found that because the donor had developed a meaningful relationship with the bond as a parent and he was the biological Father, that he was deemed to be a legal parent and was given equal shared parental responsibility for the child. I think this case is, we have to set that apart from the case where we’ve got two same sex mothers because at the moment you can only have two legal parents. In this case she was at the time a single mother and that left the door open for the donor to come in and be declared the second legal parent.

AH: Mmm, but it does relate though because we do have a lot of single lesbian ladies that do decide to want to start a family themselves as well.

NE: Mm-hmm. I think what we need to distinguish in this case as well is that the mother invited the donor into the child’s life and the donor had developed quite a close relationship with the child, so the outcome may have been different if she hadn’t of done that.

AH: Mmm, and it’s a shame really because it’s a double-edged sword, isn’t it? Because I mean you’re doing the right thing from your child essentially at the start to allow this relationship and then …

NE: Absolutely, yes.

AH: … it can backfire.

NE: It is a double-edged sword, yes, but I suppose the thing is you can’t invite the donor into the child’s life to be the Father and then turnaround and say, “Hang on, now I don’t agree, you’re not the parent”, and I think that’s why it’s really important going into that process that everybody has to be clear on their expectations and stay on that path, the same path.

AH: Exactly. There’s another Court case that’s still going on right now.

NE: Yes.

AH: Mason and Parsons and even Anor.

NE: Yes.

AH: Have you been following that at all?

NE: So I have. So the Parsons and Mason’s case is actually listed in the High Court on 16 April and this case centres around an 11 year old girl who has two mums and a donor that, so she’s grown up spending, sorry living with her two Mums and spending pretty regular time with the donor Dad and his partner. In this case, the two Mums decided that they wanted to move to New Zealand and Dad didn’t want them to do that because he felt that his time would then be quite limited with his daughter. The High Court now will decide whether the Mums are allowed to relocate to New Zealand. Under the Family Court relocation is a Parenting Order decision. The Court in making that decision has to consider the benefit of the child having a meaningful relationship with both parents and of course it’s about what is in the child’s best interests. So in this case the Court has to decide whether the donor Dad is considered her legal parent and that will then decide whether the two Mums can relocate to New Zealand. It’s a pretty big landmark case in Australia and will have pretty big repercussions in cases where known donors are involved, and it will clarify for the Family Court in how they determine a person to be a legal parent and what considerations they are to take into account in doing so. That will include the intention of the parties going into the process, how the child was conceived, circumstances around the birth, genetic parents and the role then that each person has played in the child’s life.

AH: Yes, it’s fascinating because I mean the Law, it’s a big money industry really, there’s lots of money thrown at it and to walk into a case where it’s going to be determined by, it’s not clear cut, you go speeding down the freeway doing a 110 you get flashed, you know you’re going to get a 10K fine over the limit, whereas in the Courts it’s still very cloudy, isn’t it? Like there’s so many different angles and people’s different stories that aren’t, there’s no set guideline of going, “Okay, this is what is going to be an outcome here”.

NE: Yes, I think that’s the difficulty for people going into the process is that trying to get clear on what could be the potential legal outcomes for them and the child. That’s why it’s really important to get legal advice before you go through the process. Another difficulty has been the difference in legislation between different states and then how that interacts with the Family Law Act which is Commonwealth Legislation. So in this case, it has gone to the High Court and it has become a constitutional issue which legislation should be applied, whether it’s the state legislation or the federal legislation.

AH: Here’s a hypothetical for you. These parties signed an agreement and the man, I think his name was Robert, if he signed in that agreement or put into that agreement that people, the families were to always remain local or not immigrate overseas, would that be able to have any influence in the Judge’s decision?

NE: Look, I think it would get taken into account in terms of the intention, but at the end of the day it wouldn’t be binding on the Judge to make a decision just based on that. At the end of the day it’s what is in the child’s best interests and children’s circumstances change as they get older and that’s what the Court will consider at the end of the day.

AH: Do you think there will be an evolution in contracts like where they may have a generic one or one that the Courts would sort of make binding?

NE: Yes, look I think this case will set a precedent one way or the other and subject to which way that case goes, I think will determine where the Law moves in terms of Donor Agreements. If it moves in the direction of the donor not having rights then certainly, I think we’ll see more of a move towards some kind of standard agreement that may be given more consideration by the Courts, but the overriding factor for the Family Court at the end of the day is the child’s right and not the parent’s rights.

AH: And that’s the things as well, I think you sort of said in a way that you can’t make a contract over another person’s life.

NE: Yes, a parent can’t contract out of their responsibilities as a parent.

AH: Okay, so we’ve talked about our case studies, I think which is really interesting and I think it sort of gives people a little bit of an insight on how the Court legal system is and yes, it’s best to avoid everyone, if possible, it’s costly and …

NE: Absolutely, if you can stay out of the Court, that’s best for everyone.

AH: Exactly. Do you find there’s, I think that’s starting to become more and more popular is co-parenting, whether it would be two same sex women or two same sex men couples, or a single lady or a single gay man, or a single man and a single hetero… it doesn’t matter I guess about orientation there, are you finding is co-parenting starting to become more popular and the agreements I guess would have to be more heavily involved?

NE: Yes, definitely, in my experience I would say in most of the cases that I’m aware of are same sex couples using known donors as opposed to unknown donors.

AH: Yes, but I meant like in using a known donor and saying, “Okay, you’re the donor and you can have a friendship with them”, but in terms of co-parenting where they might say, “You live here on the weekends and you go here during the week” …
NE: Yes, definitely, sorry, definitely clarifying in agreements and I try and do that with clients. Sit down and work out week to week what are your expectations of how much time the child would spend with the donor and how that actually looks day to day or week to week so that the expectations are clarified and certainly more, I think in my experience, more people are leaning towards the child having some kind of relationship with the donor and spending some level of time with them.

AH: Mmm, it’s fascinating because I think a lot of people now are listening to donor conceived people that are 20-30 years old and they’re speaking out on some of their issues, so people are now becoming more inclined to let the donor know but then at the same time as we sort of touched on it, it can open a bit of messiness start to creep in because of it.

NE: Yes.

AH: So it’s hard to balance because I mean everyone wants to be protected and no one wants to be spending lots of money at Court. So in this setting here, do you normally have the recipients come in and go through this with you or is it both parties come and sit down with you, do they do it separately, do they sit in the same room with you?
NE: Yes, so look I would have, it depends on who comes to me first as to who my client is and whom I’m acting for. Generally speaking, it would be the Mothers that have come to me seeking advice on a Donor Agreement. I can have the donor come in and we can all sit down and discuss the agreement and the process, but of course I would always then say to the donor that he should be represented separately and obtain independent legal advice, so I would refer him to a separate Solicitor so that he’s advised on the process as well, I couldn’t act for all parties in the agreement, so it’s essential that everybody does get independent legal advice. But in saying that of course, everybody can sit down together and we can go through the agreement to clarify what everyone’s expectations are in drafting that agreement as long as everybody is independently represented and gets advice on what their legal rights are.
AH: Would that be someone from a different firm and not the same firm as you?

NE: Yes, so for it to be independent legal advice, it would absolutely need to be a Solicitor from a separate firm, so there’s other Law firms that I work with on cases like this that I could refer on a donor or the Mother’s too for that advice.

AH: It’s an interesting world all this stuff. Obviously, you’re referring what could potentially be going to war at if things turn sour.

NE: Yes.

AH: That’s the other line.

NE: Absolutely, that’s right.

AH: You’re doing the goodwill thing and hand them over. You’ll be up against each other.

NE: Yes, you have to maintain the integrity in the process in ensuring that each party has that independent legal advice and that’s part of ensuring that the Donor Agreement has some meaning, making sure everybody was independently legally advised.

AH: Yes, no, look it’s a fascinating world.

NE: It is.

AH: I’m coming into terms with it.

NE: Yes, look it’s changing every day. So you’ve got to be abreast of all the different changes all the time.

AH: Mmm, it’s like Home and Away I guess, if you miss out on a few episodes, you don’t know what’s going on.

NE: Yes.

AH: Okay, so we’ve touched on agreements and cases. For people listening today, what other issues or common reasons would someone reach out to you Nicole because they might not be aware they can reach out on you on different services that you provide. What sort of scenarios that you can put out there that people might go, “Oh okay, yeah I can go to Nicole for that”?

NE: Mm-hmm. Yes, so look I provide legal advice to couples seeking out advice to go through the donor process, single women as well if they’re using a donor. It could be ownership of embryos after separating, assisting couples through the separation process and then trying to resolve parenting and property disputes – hopefully without going through the Court process, but if that can’t be achieved, then helping them through the Family Court process, and oftentimes the clients feel much more comfortable if they’ve come to me as a same sex Lawyer. I understand the legal aspects of their case and also the unique factors of being in a same sex relationship including where there’s children with a birth mother and a non-birth mother, there can bring unique set of complexities I suppose in cases like that that other Lawyers wouldn’t understand.

AH: Yes, so you’ve got those services out there. You’re in New South Wales. Is there an area, so do you take on clients only within New South Wales, obviously for logistical reasons, or do you extend out to the rest of Australia?

NE: Yes, look from I suppose for logistical reasons it’s mostly clients in New South Wales. Of course I can advise people in different states, it would just be more expensive. I’d have to fly interstate I suppose if the matters were in Court, to attend those Court hearings but yes, I could certainly advise anyone in Australia on these issues, but I would say that most of my clients come from within New South Wales.

AH: Would that be initially a phone call or a Skype interview for people around …?

NE: Yes, absolutely, so I can do FaceTime, just a conference call, Skype, there’s so many different mediums available now it’s pretty easy to speak to someone and be able to connect with them to give them some advice.

AH: The book, “Lesbians and the Law” everyone is out. I’ve got the episode guide list for this show with all Nicole Evan’s information on how to contact her and how to reach her firm and any other media about her book out there and you can purchase her book from, so I highly advise you pick up this book. It sounds like Nicole has a wealth full of knowledge and she’s just put it all in this book so when you can pick it up, it will bring you up to speed, basically give you an idea on some of the legal protections you might have out there and then obviously, if you have an issue or you need an agreement signed then you can come and obviously, reach out to Nicole and you can go from there. By the sounds of it, she likes to resolve everything outside of the Court saving everyone money.

NE: Yes, it’s what is best for everyone but if you can’t then you have to go through that process unfortunately sometimes.

AH: Yes, look it’s been a pleasure speaking to you today, Nicole. Did you have anything you’d like to add before you depart us today?

NE: Yes, look I think I’d just like to thank everyone for listening and let them know that I’m here and if they have any questions, they can give me a call. I’ve put that book out there to help people going through the process. I’ve interviewed about eight couples who went through the donor process, which I think helps people understand the issues in the process and help them clarify when they go through their own journeys. I’ve also shared some personal experiences when I went through the different processes and I hope that helps people when they go through their own process.

AH: No, that’s brilliant. Sperm Donation Australia and My Sperm Donation welcome you. We’re really trying to work in within the Law and forming relationships with people like Nicole that we can speak to and feeling that me and Nicole were even starting to learn a bit more about what we both do and obviously it’s only going to become more and more popular, same sex people using donor sperm. So it’s something we want to build a relationship and forge, so I’ll be recommending Nicole for the people, especially in New South Wales to reach out if you have any issues and if you think you may have an issue or you want to cover your bases, then she’s out there for you. So yet again, thanks for coming on the show today, Nicole.

NE: Thanks Adam.

AH: We’ll stay in touch.

NE: Absolutely, thank you.

AD: Alright thank you. And there you have it folks, another episode of Sperm Donation World complete. I hope you really enjoyed this episode and we’d love to speak to more Lawyers around Australia, especially in different states as Nicole seems to have New South Wales covered and I think New South Wales is in safe hands there. So to find out more about his episode, you can find it in the podcast episode guide list. This was episode 11. You can buy “Lesbian and the Law” book from the Sperm Donation World website as well now, we even have a book, a special section there for purchases. There’re many types of, there’s even children’s books from donor conceived, who are donor conceived and parenting books and diet books as well. So it all covers the pregnancy journey on your way to having a donor conceived child. If you’ve listened to this podcast via an application and you have the ability to give us a five star rating that would be greatly appreciated. That will allow more people the opportunity to find us and tune in and follow the show. Also, we have a Sperm Donation World Patreon page if you’d like to support that. That’s it. That a wrap for this week’s episode and we’ll see you again next week. Adieus.
[end of interview]